Standing Nowhere

Rose Colored Glasses — Kate Mageau on Abuse and Healing

• Jacob Buehler • Episode 14

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Kate Mageau is a therapist, author, and toxic-relationship survivor who joins me to talk candidly about the mechanics of abuse, the long arc of healing, and what it takes to rebuild self-trust without losing tenderness or hope.

Together we map the patterns that keep people stuck—gaslighting, shame spirals, trauma bonds, and the cycle of violence—and practice simple ways to move from analysis paralysis to clear decision-making. We focus on safety planning, overcoming hesitation, and mindfulness in daily life so that recovery becomes a lived reality rather than a distant idea.

Kate Mageau, LMHC, ADHD-CCSP, is a therapist, author, and toxic relationship survivor. Rose Colored Glasses teaches about toxic relationships through story, with psychological explanations after every chapter. The Healing from Toxic Relationships workbook teaches the mechanisms of abuse in more detail, and provides thoughtful journal prompts and coping tools. Kate Mageau is available for coaching worldwide, for ADHD, writing memoirs and self-publishing, starting businesses, and career coaching. https://www.katemageau.com/

Her book Rose Colored Glasses releases October 2 (one week after this episode airs). You can find it here: https://a.co/d/8U7owlG

Content note: This episode contains discussions of intimate partner violence and abuse. If you need support, the Domestic Violence Hotline is 800-799-SAFE (7233) and https://thehotline.org

Thank you for listening with care. May this conversation meet you where you are and help you take the next small, courageous step. 🕊️

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Jacob:

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Standing Nowhere podcast. This is your host, Jacob Buehler. It's a pleasure to be back with you. Today is episode 14, and I have a very special guest, Kate Mageau, on the podcast. She's a therapist, an author, and a toxic relationship survivor. We're going to be talking about her new upcoming book called Rose-Colored Glasses, which releases on October 2nd of this year, one week after this episode airs. And the book tells her powerful story of surviving intimate partner violence, and after every chapter, she shares reflections that unpack the psychology of abuse and healing. Our lives were actually intertwined back then, and I even appear in her story under the pseudonym of John. I do want to give you a heads up, though, for listeners. This episode will contain discussions of intimate partner violence and abuse, so please take care as you listen. Now let's jump into the conversation. Kate, do you want to talk a little bit, just kind of a little brief overview of what the book touches on here?

Kate:

Yeah, yes. Thanks, Jake, for having me. I'm very excited for this. So Rose-Colored Glasses is my story as a memoir of what it was like for me to be in a toxic relationship and how I got out of it. And then after finishing writing the story, a couple years later, once I went to graduate school and became a therapist, I went back and I wrote... the explanations of psychologically what was happening so that when you read the story, you're immersed in the story, but you're also learning the mechanism so you know what happens, why it happened, why people stay, how to notice warning signs, how to safely get out. Yeah, so it's a healing tool.

Jacob:

Absolutely. Would you describe it almost as an adventure romance novel?

Kate:

thank you so much for saying that because yes it is like a it is a story on a toxic relationship or domestic violence but i wanted to really capture the good parts too and like i i kind of felt like it's like i'm i'm writing a rom-com except for there's emotional abuse in it um yeah because that is real life right in real life like there's so many people will say things like well i would never be in a Yeah,

Jacob:

absolutely. I was in the backseat of the car. There was a time when Jason wanted you to find like a casino we wanted to go to on his GPS on his phone, and you couldn't find it fast enough. And he did like this little backhand to your cheek, kind of like he was joking, but not joking. And I remember the look on your face was just like shock and awe, like, wow. And that leads me into my first question really about this book is, What were some of the early behaviors that you may have either excused or overlooked then, but you recognize now as abuse?

Kate:

Yeah, well, yeah, when we were, you and I were messaging a few days ago or however, well, last week or something. And you told me about that memory and I did not remember it until you mentioned it. And I may have been very in shock and awe at that moment, but I also had somewhat normalized it or else I would have remembered it, right? It didn't make it into the book. It didn't make it into my current memory because the brain really can't handle all the hard memories. That's one thing. But that is an example of something that I must have excused at that moment to be like, oh, okay, this is just how things are Yeah. Um, where I think, um, some other examples would be his quote unquote teasing. Like he was constantly putting me down, but framing it as a joke.

Jacob:

Right. I remember.

Kate:

And I think that was like the big thing where it was like, Oh no, you're just being too sensitive. If you find this to like, yeah. If a person saying you're just being too sensitive, that is, that's minimizing. And that is actually a, um, a form of emotional abuse, right? And so it's kind of the mechanism of how it works is that he minimized my experiences to then prioritize his experiences. There's just so many ways I could go into this.

Jacob:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I remember from my perspective, I was just getting to know you guys as well. And I didn't know what to think. But I wanted to jump forward a little bit with a part of your book uh that i wanted to read out if that's okay it was on your wedding night

Kate:

yeah

Jacob:

quote he slapped me across the face i let out a shriek and began to sob what did you just do did you really just hit me and then you say for years after this i felt that i let this happen to me or that i caused it in some way and after moments like that what did what did self blame look like for you and how did it help shape your choices going forward because I remember you talked about that in the book like it was a definite period of time where you sort of I don't know did you blame yourself for that

Kate:

yeah oh that's such a powerful question and powerful moment very pivotal moment in the story yeah so it was our wedding night and I was too tired we had we both had drinks so much. We were pretty drunk. And I was just too drunk and tired to have sex and to... What's the word? Consummate. Consummate. Thank you. Consummate the marriage. And that's when he hit me. And so that was how it was framed. He framed it as, you didn't do X, so I did Y. And that's how it began in my head. And then I actually push out that memory after that day. Um, you know, he apologized, it was so traumatic and we are about to get on the plane to go on our honeymoon like that next day. And so it's like, what do I, what do I do now? Like, you know, um,

Jacob:

Especially after all the planning you did for the wedding. I remember not only Being there and remembering you do it, but reading it again in your book, I can only imagine. And then, you know, having any thoughts of blaming yourself.

Kate:

Right, right. But that was how he phrased it, right? He phrased so much like, oh, this is my fault for things. And so I just, you know, it didn't start that way. But over time, that way of thinking really does get into your head. And so that's the self-talk of like, okay, what can I do differently to where this doesn't happen again? And how do I keep him happy? How do I make sure that he doesn't like that? I don't mess up.

Jacob:

Right.

Kate:

And yeah, that gets a little bit into the concept of moving the goalpost, which is something abusers will do. It's like nothing can ever be good enough. So as much as I kept saying, like, I'm just going to try and make him happy. I'm going to try and not, not upset him. Uh, it's not possible. It's just literally not possible in an abusive relationship. You know, matter how hard you try and so you end up kind of getting the external abuse emotional abuse of beating yourself and then you're being beaten up emotionally and then you're beating yourself up emotionally for for not doing the things exactly the way that like you had wanted to and then also you're kind of like end up pre beating yourself up like okay so if I don't do this and he'll be upset that I didn't do this so therefore you know I have to do it and oh I can't find the motivation to do this and so what's wrong with me okay I gotta just make sure and so like all that self-talk goes on and on in your head and that's just one of the biggest reasons why it's so hard to leave is because the self-esteem gets so eroded in such a it's like so subtle as it as it happens and as I

Jacob:

guess like you're walking on eggshells kind

Kate:

of yeah yeah yeah

Jacob:

And that leads me into my next question, which it comes from... I have my notes here. It was in the 16th chapter where you talk about the trauma bond. Can you talk about how abusers create almost like a crisis and then heal it? And what does living in that cycle feel like?

Kate:

Yeah, yeah. So it is... is literally a cycle it's called the cycle of violence and it starts out with tension building there's lots of different if you google anyone can google cycle of violence and you'll see like four or five different iterations of it but the most basic level it is three steps tension building so building up to the event and then there's the event of whatever type of abuse it is and then there's the honeymoon period and so the tension building is that walking on eggshells don't know when the next blow up is going to be. I don't know when the next event is going to be. I'm going to try and do everything perfectly. I can't. Well, now the goalpost keeps getting moved. The goalpost has moved again and I'm just not going to be able to live to that example or be the way he wants me to be. Abuse happens. Then he makes up and then apologizes or somewhat. He was never good at apologizing. But you the couple makes up and then you're like okay we're closer together because we and there's this feeling of we've survived a thing together

Jacob:

and

Kate:

so each time the cycle happens it's a trauma bond that is getting you closer and closer but the other thing that's really important to know and what's really scary about it is that the cycle at first it can be like a whole year right like the whole like first year we're together like did nothing happen until that like a year and then um and maybe even the first one was like a year and a half into being together um and then the next one was like a year later and the next one was like eight or nine months later ten months later or something like that but every time it it starts happening more and more frequently and more intensely so every time a cycle completes you are in more and more danger of being hurt

Jacob:

hmm yeah and And like you said, there's, there's spaces in between and we're, um, obviously, um, you and I both know, of course, we're, I'm jumping the highlights here of the book, but they're like you describe in the book, there was wonderful periods where you have immense love for this person. I had as a friend, a plutonic friend, immense love for, for Jason as well. He was one of the best friends I ever had. And all of this was so, um, there's not even a word It's just beyond shocking. And I can only imagine what that cycle must have been like to have that love for him that intensifies more and more, especially as you go through these cycles.

Kate:

Yeah. I mean, that's where it's romanticized, right? It's like we look at these other couples from previous generations that stay together for so long. But like, look, people weren't talking about domestic violence then. People weren't talking about domestic violence. Even when I left this 10 years ago, it was not something that we talked about in society so going back generations and generations and we're like oh but my grandparents stayed together forever yeah because no one spoke up because they didn't know that they like and also women weren't even allowed to have credit cards until the 70s or vote into the 20s right like if we look at like yes older couples stay together longer but I don't believe that's because they just learned how to make up better because they didn't have the opportunities to be apart. And no-fault divorce was also in the 70s, right? They can't just, even though abuse is not a no-fault divorce, but having the option to easily divorce, having the option to get a credit card, to get a home. I think getting a mortgage for women was not until the 80s or 90s. I mean, people did not have the... the education to understand what domestic violence was because it wasn't spoken about or talked about. And we, and it even really started becoming a thing talked about in the seventies and nineties. Right. So if you don't know what it is, then you stay in it. And that's what happens now. And that's part of why I wrote this book is to be like, look, let's help people not do this. Yeah. So using a couple, an old couple, it's just not a good example.

Jacob:

And there's so much nuance. You don't know what that couple went through. And like you said, Different mindsets, different times. You couldn't even go to your friends back then. And as you outlined in parts of the book, which I won't digress into now, even in your case, trying to go to friends was pretty tough in some of the responses you got. And I wanted to quote another part of your book, which was the most horrendous part. It said, To this day, years later, I still do not have any sort of explanation, but nothing would excuse what he did. And then you say, unfortunately, even witnessing this violence did not make me leave. This is where I tried to understand his manipulative behaviors so I can explain why I still didn't leave at this point and why it is normal for survivors not to leave after horrendous violence. So I wanted to ask you, And if someone's listening that may have a lot of these obvious warning signs, like that event I just quoted from the book, or even more subtle ones, what are some things that they should and should not do? And the same question for friends that suspect abuse. What should they do and not do? Yeah.

Kate:

Okay. Well, if you are suspecting that you're in it, then this will always be my answer. Call the National Domestic Violence Hotline. They are going to, A, give you help, B, connect you to your local place. Because the way that domestic violence advocacy agencies are funded is through local taxes. So you can only get help from the one that is in your area. So you call the NAPA. And you can text them. You can also use their website. They will help you get that, like, personalized help that you need because every situation is going to be very different. Also, on their website, they have a safety plan. And you can go and create your own safety plan. A safety plan and the survivor following their own instincts is paramount importance. When a person tries to leave is the highest time that... highest possibility of them being murdered yeah and it's like oh did i want to come out and say oh my gosh someone could be murdered but yes because it really does happen when we look at these horrific stories in the news of somebody um you know killed their wife and then the kids and you know that's domestic violence right those stories are domestic violence so when a person is trying to leave, they really do have to be very cautious with their safety plan and get the help of the hotline, of the agency, of somebody who really knows how to help you look at all these different aspects to make the safest plan for yourself. You want to try and leave when the person is not there. Like in my case, we dropped him off at work and then I left the States.

Jacob:

I want to ask you about that in a moment too. So it sounds like when someone's ready to leave, they need to carefully plan. It sounds like unless there's immediate danger, but if they have the time,

Kate:

if there's immediate danger, like, you know, each person's going to have to figure that out for themselves, but there could be immediate danger of like, say something bad on like a level eight out of 10. And then you leave because immediately because of that level eight danger and then you come back you're at a 10 you're dead you you're not going back for anything

Jacob:

okay so you need to be ready to make that gone

Kate:

gone yeah yeah so if you are feeling a sense of a three out of 10 start getting resources start considering what you

Jacob:

have

Kate:

yeah yeah get some of your own money that you can like if your bank accounts are Thank goodness I never merged my bank accounts with him. So hopefully have your own money in a bank account. I've seen where people have done things like this woman, so smart. She would go to the grocery store and get cash back and then it would just look like a grocery store transaction because some people will track all of that. And then she hid money in her tampons box.

Jacob:

Wow. I can't believe these stories I mean gosh I was terrifying

Kate:

yeah

Jacob:

yeah and for friends in these situations oh sorry I cut you off

Kate:

oh no it's okay I was gonna say um you know it doesn't it may not be that way for everybody right the different there's so many different types of abuse it may not be financial abuse or whatever but that's where getting the help from a person who specializes in this is going to help you to figure it out you also want to have a a go bag. And just tell the person that this is in case of, well, it depends where you live. In Seattle, it's an earthquake. When I was living in Florida, I would say a go bag for a hurricane. In the desert, I don't know what your big land. But just a natural disaster go bag. Yeah.

Jacob:

Okay. And that actually segues into what I was going to quote next from your book, which was the part where you left, which in my mind was one of the most terrifying parts of it. I believe it was in chapter 18. You say, quote, I pinched his arms with my nails as tightly as I could. And then after he yelled, you grabbed or it says you grabbed my I'm butchering this. I'm sorry. I grabbed my overnight bag and laptop and ran out the door. faster than I'd ever run before. And shortly after, you know, there was, there was a couple of events that transpired and I'm jumping way ahead to chapter 34, which is where you actually fully left. And it says, yes, wait,

Kate:

can let me pause there for a second. Yeah. That chapter 18. Yeah. The book goes to, I think 34 or 35 chapters, something like that. So 18, we're still halfway through and I left not being prepared and I went back to him. because I wasn't prepared, right? So like that also highlights, it's really important to be really ready to go. So you're not going back going, okay, well, what now with my life? How do I do this? Yeah, okay, go ahead.

Jacob:

Sorry. Yeah, no, that's very important. Because these two quotes I pulled are actually far apart in the book 18 to 34. And the first one I read, like you said, you went back to him. And do you feel that since you didn't have the plan, obviously things got much worse because of that. It caused more problems. I

Kate:

think there was a pretty good honeymoon period for a while.

Jacob:

So it was more of that cycle.

Kate:

He was really trying to make things feel really, really nice for quite some time. But then the next time that there was an event was really quite brutal. And so it's like this buildup had been happening underneath him that he hid really well

Jacob:

not to mention you have all that history yeah the

Kate:

trauma bond plays into the cycle of violence yeah so the trauma bond is what is keeping the person and then every time the cycle of violence completes then it's a more strong trauma bond so both

Jacob:

and then in chapter 34 you say quote I needed to assure my safety before I helped him and that's in reference to making sure he had the car and things like that. And then it says for once, or I'm sorry, we all got into Lisa's car and then she and I acted like everything was fine and it was a normal day. And then you say, I began to feel an overwhelming sense of calm inside me. I almost even started to feel happy and confident. I wanted to ask you in regards to that, in regards to your exit plan, What made you feel safe enough to finally act that time to make it happen?

Kate:

Well, two main things. One, I was really fortunate that my sister was there. So basically like another event had occurred that my sister was there to support me at four and she was, you know, talking with me right that same night and into the next morning about like, are you sure you don't want to leave? And I'm like, well, my whole life is here. year like I really couldn't figure it out what it would look like to leave and then he gaslit me and I did not know what gaslighting was I had never heard the term I had no idea what but I I had this conversation with him or this argument with him and I was like finding my voice and starting to stand up to him and he just kept lying he just kept being like oh no that didn't happen and I'm like what what do you mean that didn't happen I know what happened? So I go and I tell my sister this and she's like, oh, that's gaslighting. And I was like, what's that? And she just explains to me. And I was like, oh my God, how long has he been? He's, he's been doing this for a long time,

Jacob:

right?

Kate:

This is not the first time he gaslit me. Oh my God. And just started to click. And I was like, oh, he's always going to gaslight me. He's never going to change. This is, this is how he has been.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Kate:

I got to go.

Jacob:

And that was it. You knew. Yeah. For sure.

Kate:

Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't know about the imminent dangers of like, you know, what can happen of the possibilities of murder at that point. But my sister had told me like, you can go back if you want. And that did give me some calm and peace. But now that like, you know, I'm a therapist experienced in helping people with this, I would not say you can go back if you want. I think it's very, very dangerous to go back. Um, but having my sister there, I think was the big thing. And that she, she was like, yeah, this is what gaslighting is. I was like, holy.

Jacob:

Yeah. Yeah. It seemed like in the book when you started to connect with your family and finally feel comfortable opening up to them about a lot of these things, it really helped, um, helped with your confidence in making this decision would you say that's fair to say

Kate:

yes absolutely and for a long time I didn't feel like I could talk to my family but then it got to a point where it was so bad that I was like I think I have to because he would like the isolation and that we moved from the northwest to Vegas but that was also partly due to the 2009 economy and But then isolation in that if I was on the phone with friends and family, he'd always be like, oh, who are you talking to? Oh, like, when are we going to hang out? And I'm like, you know, I see you all the time. Let me talk to my family for like an hour or whatever, right? So I just didn't talk to everybody as much as I wish I would have. And if I had, you know, and I did keep all my friendships, which is amazing. But had I been having regular conversations about like, oh, he did X, Then I would have had more feedback of like, Hey, that's not okay.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Kate:

And then I had all of you guys as friends, but I also didn't want, he didn't want me to tell anybody about anything. And I didn't want to mess up the, like when I hung out with you and well, Anna and the book, I wanted that to be like, that was my calm happy time you know I didn't want to think about all the other stuff

Jacob:

I'm sure it brings it up for you to to the surface when you have to explain it to everyone I think you mentioned that during the process when you were leaving like it was you didn't want to just tell everyone right away of course because that's a lot and it changes the way people look at you I'm sure at least in your own mind you know on this topic can we myth bust the just just leave him idea a little bit can we talk about that I mean I'm sure that's a pretty common phrase why don't you just leave him you know like oh yeah it's ridiculous

Kate:

I would never do that I would just leave him like

Jacob:

yeah

Kate:

bitch you don't know like

Jacob:

you

Kate:

know Yeah. So it's a culmination of the things that we've talked about so far, right? So it is the emotional abuse. It's the trauma bond. It's the cycle of violence. All of these things are acting in tandem to strengthen the relationship and break down the self-esteem. So we can call that myth busted then. Yes. And you layer on the isolation where you aren't feeling safe to talk to other people about it. So then you're just, and layer on the gaslighting. So then you're just trying to make sense of stuff in your own head and none of it makes any sense.

Jacob:

Yeah. I remember the gaslighting about the tripping quote unquote incident. And I think for you, was that in terms of physicality kind of a final straw or can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah.

Kate:

In physicality, yes, because it was the third time that I, like, third big thing that I thought of happening, even though technically it was the fourth, but I'd forgotten about the very first one on the wedding night. But it was more the gaslighting. Because he's like, you tripped. You must have felt, you, like, I wouldn't have pushed you. And I'm like, I know. that your hands were outstretched toward me. I watched your hands stretch out to me and push me.

Jacob:

Yeah.

Kate:

You can't make me not believe that.

Jacob:

Change reality.

Kate:

Yeah. And I think that he had been trying to change my reality for a really long time.

Jacob:

And not just you, but everybody. I remember in that incident, oh, she drank too much. You know, she slipped. And then hurtful nicknames like intoxicated. hate and all that you know like it was unbelievable um and i think you you pointed out how some friends thought that that was the reality um in the book who i won't point out but it's amazing how that gaslighting cannot just be contained in between you two but you know trying to explain it to everyone it's like you know the old cliche when a woman's wearing glasses and she has like the little oh i slipped and fell or something you know i mean it was like oh it was literal in your case, you know, I slipped and fell. It's like, no, she didn't. No,

Kate:

no. Is that what, yeah. Like, what do you remember from that time when I, when I left? Is that, that's what people were saying?

Jacob:

It was, uh, it was obviously a long time ago. And, and from my recollection, that was kind of the general vibe. I was one of those that I was like, I, you know, this is between you guys type thing. Um, looking back though, I wish that and this is something that your book really does is it brings awareness. That's what I try to do on this podcast is help people be more mindful, bring more awareness into their life. And the warning signs and these red flags that you talk about are very important. So even, you know, to people who think that they're not in an abusive relationship now or may not be, I think there's a lot to get out of this book because of what it teaches you to look for in relationships, even for For me, as a husband, it kind of made me evaluate myself and, oh, have I ever done any of these before? I might have gotten close. I mean, to some degree, I think everybody makes mistakes, of course, and manipulation is part of being human. But I think it's when we notice or become mindful that we are, we need to make changes. But to your question, yeah, I think that was the general vibe that was being pushed is not to be make a pun there is that you had tripped because of that and something was off you know I think with all of us and the way it was perceived with that but

Kate:

right right but like that's the story that Jason wanted to tell people was sure I tripped how does that make sense that then I just left and never came back after

Jacob:

that I think people started to Yeah. But the aftermath was what really touched my heart. I believe it was chapter 34, you say, quote, after I had lived with an abuser for five years, I had forgotten what it felt like to be able to count on people that I loved because he showed me that I could not. My father and stepmother also showed me they were there for me. As did my friends and other family members. Abuse had made me forget. But leaving reminded me that love is not supposed to strip you of safety. It's supposed to restore it. To me, that really hit me in the feels when I read that. And I just wanted to ask you, what was the aftermath like when your family was just surrounding you with love? And what are green flags that you talk about that you cherish now?

Kate:

Yeah. Well, right after, yeah, I went to my mom and stepdad's house, and then my dad and stepmom and saw my friends. You know, everyone was around, but I was in shock. I did not move for two weeks. I was just in literal, like, I slept on the couch. My mom's dog, who's no longer with us, but our mom's dog, Slider, was this big golden retriever who would cuddle with me on the couch. Okay. It was very sweet. So I stayed in shock until I called the National Domestic Violence Hotline. And I talked with them. And I was like, well, here's a little bit of what happened. And I just, I don't know how am I supposed to ever talk to him again. And the person on the phone said, you don't. I was like, what? She was like, you don't have to. have to talk to him ever again if you don't want to. And I was like, oh, okay then. And I started coming out of shock.

Jacob:

Wow. Just from the realization that you didn't have to speak to him again, you felt just like that immediately better. I mean, no,

Kate:

it's very like, yeah, I'm healed. No, no, no, not like that.

Jacob:

But you felt a wave of relief that you didn't have to actually speak to him

Kate:

I felt snapped out of the shock I felt like I could come in to a sense of safety in my body because I didn't have a sense of safety in my body once I like that's part of the shock right the shock was okay I left him but what like what now like we're married we have a house like what what happens now and I I just thought I was gonna have to reconcile something things with him and I couldn't make sense of how that would look knowing how dangerous he was and knowing how much he gaslights like emotionally dangerous and so the the shock was this feeling of paralysis on one hand I've left on the other hand I might have to speak to him again and be in that world again and once I learned that I did not have to like yes I spoke to through lawyers um I didn't have to talk to him again then I I was able to come out of my shock because I was not in the paralysis of floating between worlds. I was like, oh, I can feel safe enough that I can start to find my voice and start to ask for help and get the help that I need.

Jacob:

Right. It's almost as if, correct me if I'm wrong here, but your mind, after the gaslighting, you were in fear that that it would happen again, but your body was kind of telling you something was wrong this whole time, right? Like you were... Like... the stories wanted to make sense in your mind that he was telling you, but your body was telling you something else, perhaps, your subconscious, whatever you want to call it, like, you need to get out of here. And then knowing that moment you realized you didn't have to talk to him ever again, it sounds like a big relief. I mean, were you worried that when you talked to him again, he'd try to talk you back into coming home, things like that? Yeah,

Kate:

and then I was like, if he could have done that to me, if he could have... you know, push me downstairs and told me that he didn't, what else would he do? So there was a part of my body that even though I didn't have all the statistics on chance of being murdered, there was a part of me that knew that that could have been a thing.

Jacob:

Or with Mary, you talked about his lack of remorse about it. Yeah. I mean, that was...

Kate:

Yeah.

Jacob:

Joking about it even.

Kate:

Yeah.

Jacob:

So I wanted to ask you about chapter 18 in your book. You mentioned, quote, now I take a minimum of a few minutes each day to practice mindfulness. Mindfulness is really just being present, acknowledging what is right in front of you, and letting your thoughts about the past and future slip away. Practicing mindfulness gives our brain a chance to rest and pause, which allows our brains to organize our thoughts and process everything so we can make better decisions moving forward. But I didn't have a mindfulness practice back then. I just kept trudging forward, no matter what life threw at me. And I wanted to ask from, you know, a therapist perspective or your own personal experience, what kind of practices you recommend? I talk about mindfulness a lot in this podcast, so a lot of my listeners would be curious, you know, what does a therapist, especially in your niche with, you know, the people you help, what kind of practices do you recommend and partake in yourself?

Kate:

Oh, Um... I honestly, there is not one answer to that. It is so individualized. It is whatever makes sense for you. What I do personally, and I have the luxury of setting my own schedule, so I can start my workday at 10 a.m. and I can wake up at 8 and have plenty of time in the morning, right? But it depends on what you do you. But I start my day with coffee by the window and And sometimes I will be reading a book or I will be doing a crossword or maybe pulling some tarot cards. But I'll just stare out the window a lot.

Jacob:

It doesn't need to be the full lotus. Oh,

Kate:

my gosh. No, no. And also just a note there that when you look at the window in the morning and see any sunshine, even here in Seattle where it's often gray, there's still some sunshine that pokes through. Right. That actually helps to bring a little cortisol and it'll help your brain wake up a little bit more. So that's my mindfulness practice. And when I finish my work day, I just sit. I just sit and let everything just leave my mind. Now, what I do want to say is within those last, with the first few years after leaving an abusive relationship your brain will find stillness to be pretty scary because when you have stillness some memories are going to float up and things that you weren't expecting will float up so I actually do not recommend it for when you're first leaving because it's not going to feel safe and good in your body but what I do recommend is and so there's meditation is like the like just sit with nothing right and then there's mindfulness which is doing something so my mindfulness in the morning My morning is a little bit of both. But if I'm reading a book or doing a crossword, my brain can only do that thing, right? It can only take in the words of the book or it can only fill out the crossword puzzle answers. It's just giving your brain something to make it take up all the space. Yeah, but like in a non-urgent matter. And so it might be a Sudoku or it might be the act of making your tea or making your coffee. It's basically a time to turn off the background noise.

Jacob:

Yes. That's beautiful, Kate. I really like that. And when I read that in the book, I was really touched because before I even read that part, I had this reflection that your entire book is really bringing awareness. Like you say, warning signs, you know, being aware because the signs are there whether you see them or not. And your book brings awareness to that, which is invaluable. Like I said, even earlier, even to myself, I don't consider myself abusive, but it's like everyone can get something out of this book. It can make them double check themselves. It's really powerful. And I have to commend you for that. And the mindfulness bit was just awesome when I read that. Oh, thank

Kate:

you. And I want to speak to that just briefly. Like, no, Jake, you are not abusive. We know this. Okay. This is without a doubt factual um but like yeah but because he mentioned it earlier earlier too where you're like well i saw i see that i could do these things yeah i see things that i can do too right i also have a lot of humility in the book where i'm like well yeah i also wasn't perfect here um and um

Jacob:

You did that really well in the book.

Kate:

Thanks. You're very honest. When we're determining if a relationship is abusive or not or toxic or not, whatever word choice you want to have there, we are looking at an overall power dynamic. Is the power shared between the couple or does one person have more power? What that power can look like can be very different. People can be in charge of you know my partner right now he is changing the fog light on the car okay you know but I do all the laundry and like that's fine right like whatever the power is it's it's equal in its own way then you know you have a healthy relationship so you want to look at that and you want to look at how do you feel how do each of you feel happy safe yeah if you have that then you're good if you don't feel happy and safe then that's when you need to look at and evaluate

Jacob:

good stuff and I like what you said too about mindfulness like you know be careful about how fast you jump into it it's good to be aware but diving straight into your innermost psyche about everything you're experiencing can be really rough so be mindful of the warning signs but be mindful of how you're you know how fast you surface things as well don't overload yourself

Kate:

Yeah, and that's where like talking about it externally, like with a friend or family member or domestic violence advocacy agency, people that work there, like talking about it with someone else is safer, because you can emotionally regulate with that person instead of being all alone in your own

Jacob:

brain. might be in this situation now as far as tangible things to do. Like you mentioned calling shelters and hotline resources. Are there specific, should we direct them to the description box or is there something we can tell them over the air right now?

Kate:

Yes. So National Domestic Violence Hotline, they have a phone number, they have a text, they have a chat on their website. Get a hold of them and they will

Jacob:

help you get to that. Oh, sorry. I cut you off. I think I took it from your book. Is it 800-799-SAFE, I believe?

Kate:

Yes. Yes.

Jacob:

Okay. And the hotline.org, I believe. We'll put that in the description, too.

Kate:

Yes. Yes. Please do. Yes. Put that in there. They are going to be your first step, even if you're not sure. Even if you're like, I don't know if this is domestic violence or not. Just start there. They are going to help you to get the right resources to know what to do next and then also try and talk to yeah and try and talk to your friends and family or if you've been so isolated that you don't have friends and family try and talk to anyone

Jacob:

just somebody

Kate:

anyone that is an acquaintance someone you kind of know try and speak with someone about it because keeping it all inside your head is where it's the most confusing um so gotta get get the words out

Jacob:

absolutely get some other perspective And on that note, there was a quote I had. I know we're moving towards the finish line here, but I wanted to read this last quote. It's pretty short. It's very to the point. I believe it's in your final epilogue. You say, quote, the bottom line is that the person's life is more important than your relationship with them. It is an issue of safety over trust. I think that hits it right on the head. Reach out. don't uh you're not going to have a relationship if you don't have your life right i mean

Kate:

yes

Jacob:

yes

Kate:

absolutely that is i put that in there for the people who know someone who might be in a relationship and are like well i don't want to say something because i don't want to rock the boat say something say something hey i noticed this i'm here for you don't tell them you have to leave because that might not be the right answer for them but i noticed this and i here for you.

Jacob:

Awesome. Well, Kate, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you taking not only your time, but having the courage to write this book, to talk about this. I know you've been on several podcasts promoting the book, and it couldn't have been easy to write the book, much less talk about it. So thank you for having the courage and doing this. You go back in time. Can you imagine us you know, back in 2010, thinking someday I'll have a podcast. I'll be interviewing you about this topic. where we were I

Kate:

feel like I could have seen if you're like I'm gonna have a podcast to talk about the importance of caring for the environment I would have been like yeah like that I could that I could predict yeah but not not this yeah

Jacob:

doing this with you yeah it's just it's been great it's been great reconnecting with you it's been healing for me as well I mean this this whole thing has been awesome and do you want to let our listeners know where they can find you and where they can pre-order the book

Kate:

yeah yeah thank you um yeah this has been so good so good to speak with you um yes so um you can find um find me and the book everything is at my name katemageau.com k-a-t-e-m-a-g-e-a-u and then you can find a link to it there but it's on amazon and then it'll also be um available anywhere books are sold i'm putting it on amazon um oh my god why did i just forgot the name of it, Amazon Kindle Unlimited. So if you have that, you can read it for free, but then that means that the e-books are just going to hopefully be at libraries. You can request it to be at your library, and the e-book will be on Amazon, and then you can order the print book anywhere books are sold.

Jacob:

Awesome. I'll put links in the description, too, so that people can find it easily, and of course, I highly recommend it. It is an incredible read, and this has been a lot of fun thank you

Kate:

thank you oh and i also want to add i am available for um coaching if you want to write your own memoir i am going to be setting up a program for that soon so if you're like if you're inspired to write your own book like this then i would love to help you through that

Jacob:

that's so awesome i didn't know you were doing that as well very cool

Kate:

i'm always doing something

Jacob:

you're just doing all kinds of fun stuff that's how you've always been All right, Kate. Well, thank you again. I love you. And this has been awesome.

Kate:

Love you too, Jake.

Jacob:

All right, everyone. Well, that wraps up our conversation. I want to say a huge thanks to Kate for her courage and vulnerability for being willing to expose a very vulnerable part of her life like this, her courage and openness to share this story. Absolutely incredible. Before we sign off, I will be reading her Survivors Bill of Rights, which appears at the end of her book. And it's something that survivors read together at the end of every support group. And Kate Key it close as a daily reminder. Before I read that though, I do want to remind you all that Rose Colored Glasses, the book will be out on October 2nd, one week after this episode airs. And if anyone listening feels that they are in a situation that we've been talking about or describing, please do not hesitate to call that domestic violence hotline. The number is 800-799-SAFE. That's 799-SAFE. Or you can go to thehotline.org. And now as we close, I want to read Kate Survivor's Bill of Rights. So my Bill of Rights. I have the right to be me. I have the right to put myself first. I have the right to be safe. I have the right to love and be loved. I have the right to be treated with respect. I have the right to be human, not perfect. I have the right to be angry and protest if I am being treated unfairly or abusively by anyone. I have the right to my own privacy. I have the right to my own opinions, to express them and to be taken seriously. I have the right to earn and control my own money. I have the right to ask questions about anything that affects my life. I have the right to make decisions that affect me. I have the right to grow and change, and that includes my mind. I have the right to say no. I have the right to make mistakes. I have the right not to be responsible for other adults' problems. I have the right not to be liked by everyone. And I have the right to control my own life and to change it if I am not happy with it as it is.